Welcome to Artist on Artist, a new series from The Makeup Light featuring honest conversations between some of the most respected voices in the makeup industry.
In our first episode, Academy Award-winning makeup artists Vivian Baker and Cliona Furey sit down to share stories from their careers, the realities of working at the highest level of film and television, and the lessons they've learned along the way. From artistry and collaboration to the importance of seeing your work under the right light, this conversation is filled with insight, experience, and a genuine love for the craft.
Watch the full conversation below, or scroll down to read the complete transcript.
Read the Transcript:
Vivian: Cliona, you there?
Cliona: I'm here. Hi. Can you hear me?
Vivian: I can. How are you? Look at you. Where's that Oscar Gold?
Cliona: Oh, gosh, it's not on. It's somewhere.
Vivian: It was fun, huh? I think mine's up in up there somewhere. There
Cliona: Yeah, I'm still kind of pinching myself. I still… it's surreal.
Vivian: You'll do that for like years.
Cliona: I live in a little town here and they did an article in our paper and I walk my dog and people are so excited about it. They're all recognizing me. I'm a townie here. I grew up here. That's great. Really sweet. Yeah, it really also amplifies how important it is to a lot of people. What a big deal it is. What a big honor it is. So, yeah, I still have to tell myself that it's real. Yeah.
Vivian: Yeah. Yeah. That I mean, that took a long time for me too. And, you know, you kind of go through different emotions with it, believe it or not. You know, my husband had it in the house because he was so proud of it and kind of, you know, everyone was as well. And then finally, after a few years, I was like, I got to take this out of the house and put it in my studio because there was a bit of where you understand the value that it brings to what you say and who you are and what you're about, and it does, and that's amazing. But I wanted to quit thinking about it. It was good for me to do that for a long time that I wanted to quit having it in my peripheral because I knew it was there. But I wanted to kind of make sure that I stayed in my roots. But that was just me. That was just, you know what I mean? Because I think there's a bit of, you know, and you know this as well. There's a bit of like. While you earned it for Frankenstein, you earned it for decades of work because you didn't get to Frankenstein and do the work that was acknowledged without having a body of work underneath all of that.
Cliona: Thanks, yeah, and I would say the same to anyone that's at that level, and I just actually got a message from someone who's learning who's in UK. We had been out there filming who, you know, wanted my advice and hoped to collaborate with me someday, and I'm sure you get a lot of those too. But I was speaking with her and I said, you know, I had, I was putting on wigs well and doing good work a long time ago, like the talent or whatever, or a lot of the know-how was there, but I hadn't matured yet, and I said this many times about Frankenstein. All the previous movies before were like a rehearsal for it, and I don't, I wouldn't have been ready for Frankenstein 10 years ago. Yeah, I could put the wigs on well and I could do the work, but I had a long way to mature and to grow as a designer and a department head because there's so much more that goes into it than just putting on a wig or doing hair or doing makeup. Yeah, and I would agree with that. I've been doing it a long time since I was quite young, and I think back to, you know, the learning curves we've all had, even 10, 5 years ago. Not, and I have more to grow too. Always a student, but yeah, thanks for saying that. It is nice, and an actor texted me and and said that, and it felt really good. It's not, it's just for that. It's all the things you've done, and it has been, it has been a while. I've been at it since I was 17, so. Yeah, oh yeah, me too, me too.
Vivian: You know, Cliona, one of the things about learning, you're right, you brought up a really, really amazing point, and that the skill of what we do is only one thing. You know, I was working with a makeup artist who, we worked together when I was quite, quite young, and she was like, oh man, you've changed so much. Actually, because I've seen the change, but you know, you were so intense. You were so intense, and so incredibly focused, and you were so like, and when, you know, because it had to be perfect, and it had to be right, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I had to learn too. I had to, it's not just for the work.
The work is one thing, but can you do the work under that pressure? Can you still stay focused under that pressure? Can you still have faith under that pressure that you'll get there? Do you have enough foundation that you can get there? You know, like, how do you treat people where you hold them to a standard, and yet you're kind? I mean, these are things that you do not learn overnight, and you know, and it was nice to talk to her to realize, yeah, I mean, I've had a high standard, but I needed to learn how to move people into that, and that was, that was a lesson for me, that I needed to learn how to do that, and I, you know, and I think we're always still, still learning what that's about.
So, I think for you, winning an Oscar, yes, it's about your work, but it's also about your character, because you can't get there without some. You're not going to get there, you're not going to get Guillermo to hire you job after job, and to put you into something this big, and to have all the work, and to have such a big department, if the who you are on the inside as a human being isn't fully intact.
Cliona: Wow, thank you.
Vivian: Yeah, and so congratulations on that. I mean, it's a lot of, you know, it is a lot of work, and I'm so happy for you, and yes, you'll go through lots of stuff, and enjoy, enjoy it, and let it, let it change you in all of the good ways. You know what I mean? Let it change you in all the good ways.
Cliona: Keep your feet on the ground, though, too. I don't want to.
Vivian: Absolutely.
Cliona: The second I start thinking it means something other than what we talked about, I think is the second I'm not going to be very good anymore.
Vivian: Well, I think that's the point, is that what the Oscar does is, to me, is it makes you realize that, that there's value to what you say, and then you have to keep backing it up. So, in a way, it's a pressure that, I, I think it could break you, or it's going to keep you.
Cliona: Right, yeah, you know, I mean, to have the actual statue, I think if you get nominated, actually, I've been in the bake-off before with another movie, and just to make the bake-off is huge. It's an honor, it's a great thing to achieve. To then be nominated, to me, there's your win right there. I mean, that with our year, all five teams were absolutely incredible, and all very different from each other. It was very international. I got to know everybody, and I forgot, I'm going to be very honest, I know that everybody wants to win the statue, but I've, the nomination is the win, to me. It is. It doesn't, to me, mean that I was any better than anyone else. There's no loser. I think it's a cherry on top, and maybe luck of the draw. I don't, I don't know how to describe it, but I would, I just, anyone could have won that, in my opinion, out of those five, you know.
Vivian: That's, that's true.
Cliona: And to get the statue is amazing, but I honestly forgot about that. I thought, I'm going to the Oscars, I'm bringing my mom and my son, and I, I was just taking it all in, and then when they, the category came up, I got really nervous, like, oh yeah, this is actually, somebody's going to win, and it's all a blur, but I made some great connections with a lot of people, and what I loved is not every movie was a big budget movie. They were all different from each other, but all real, anyone could have won, all strong work, strong, and all outstanding work, so that was really cool to, to be part of, just to be in that group. It's how, how I felt.
Vivian: Of course, and you're, and you are right, you know, in, in the Academy, are you in the Academy? Well, you will be.
Cliona: Not, not at the moment.
Vivian: Well, you're going to be. I think, I think once you win, you, you actually get like, you know, a free admission to the Academy, but the, the makeup and hairstylist branch is the only branch, well, I think visual effects as well, but we're one of the only branches where the branch itself puts the five movies up for the whole Academy, because we know what it goes into. It's harder for people to judge what we do, because at the end of the day, if you can't see what we do, then that's when you're doing it the best, right? So, if you leave it up to the world to understand, they're only going to see, oh, I could see the makeup, therefore, it was good, and we're like, ah, not necessarily the point. So your peers, your comrades, your colleagues are the ones who put it up.
Cliona: That means so much, and that's why I say to have the nomination is the win, it's your peers, the best of the best of the people who created, you know, what we do, have said, have decided that, and that was, for me, a huge honor, and as a hairstylist, and as a head of hair, I was really, it meant so much to me that the Academy decided to look at the hair of the whole movie, didn't just focus on one element in the movie, and that meant a lot to me. Yeah.
Vivian: Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's one of the things, I mean, I know people want to give the Academy a hard time as if it's got another agenda, but I can speak for the makeup and hairstylist branch, it does not. There, I have never seen an agenda there other than the agenda for the best work, you know, and I'm, I'm really proud of that. I think it's amazing that that's what they're about. So yes, being nominated is an award, and then getting to the actual Oscar is another reward. It's a double, it's a double thing, and, and you've earned it, and you deserve it, and, and you will, you will make it. I know you, we've had a chance to work together.
Cliona: Yeah, and I've learned so much from you, too. I have, you know what, and I have to acknowledge that. I mean, there's so many great people that I've, I talked about growing and maturing into where I am now, and there's a ways to go still, but it's people like you and, and Morgan, and, and just people that I've watched and learned from, and, and they've taught you. I remember you taught me about the Super Baldiez, and, oh yeah, it's very empowering. You're very generous with sharing information and collaborating, and that's what makes you grow as well, and just watching people who've been around a little longer than you that have reached heights you haven't reached yet, watching how they handle protecting their work in their department with the fact that we have to be production friendly, and we are working within a production, so how you speak to producers, directors. I've been taking, I'm an always a student, so I've been taking all that in all these years, and, and I see people watching me now, and you said it the other day when we chatted, it's your responsibility as a department head to make sure that, you know, you've got all the lights, the proper tools, situation for your, for your team to do their work, and that part of the job is, is a big part.
It's like you said, the talent and the skill set is, is a part, but there's so much more, so protecting your work, defending it, and that's something I've learned from Guillermo too, is to, I've really grown in owning my work, owning it. I learned from him to own it, to defend it, and never settle. Yeah, like there's times you have to settle, but I'll talk to him about what we settle on, you know. I'll say to him, is this, this person's in one shot, is this wig an eight out of ten, or am I going all the way, and he'll, you know, like for the geek in Nightmare Alley, the geek originally, that was Paul Anderson in a wig, and originally he was in it for a couple of days, and something in my gut, it was instinct. I wasn't pleased with the wig that I had, which was something we refronted, and we had a little bit of time, a couple, a few weeks, and I, I don't know why, I just in my gut knew I had to talk to him, and I said, this geek, you know, look, he said all the way, it's so important that the geek tent, and the chicken, and everything, I want an eight, an 11 out of 10 wig. I said, okay, so Stacey very kindly built one for him very quickly, and I'm so glad, because he ended up being in, oh my gosh, I don't know how many times, and he was in a lot in, in a very good wig, so just never settling, and knowing when to, and finding out from the boss when, what they want, and that's been all the big part of growing too.
Vivian: It is, you know, I remember, you're right about that, because you did such a good job. Then the director expanded the role, and I remember kind of early on in my career, I realized I was talking to someone, and they were like, you know, I've never had any prosthetics to do in any of the movies I've ever done. I thought, that's crazy, every movie I've ever done, there's always been some level of prosthetics to do, so we had a chat about it, and then I realized later, it's because they don't do prosthetics, but I do.
So when you walk into your film, you bring your whole skill set, and when you bring your whole skill set, then you're able to bring to their table, and when you can, they run with that. So maybe they weren't expecting that character to take a big role, because they weren't sure it was going to look right. And then when they realized they had someone who could bring them what they wanted, then it expanded the story, because no matter how you look at it, we're storytellers. And that visual part of how to tell a story, it's a visual art, and so I mean, I think those are the important things. And it's tricky today, you're right, I mean, I want to go back.
I think it's a really big thing that to talk about the responsibility of the department head, talk about those things, and you're right. We'll bring it into the lights, of course, because I think that's a big deal, but I don't think that a lot of people know what the responsibility is. And I think that production has taken over in areas, because no one did, no one decided, no one walked in and said, hey, you know, I, these are the makeup stations I want for background, or where are we going to put background, let's talk about how that's going to work, and so the department had never asked, so production just did it, and so we kind of get what we don't ask for.
And you know, I remember working with a really great artist, Howard Berger, and I was like, man, you always get the great trailers. And he was like, Vivian, I asked for them, and I was like, duh, you could have hit me! You know what I mean? I would have fallen over from a feather for that! He's absolutely right, we don't get because we don't ask, and asking doesn't mean that it's demanding. Asking is, this is what I need to give the best work of my department. I know that there'll be compromises and sacrifices, it is a series of compromises doing movies and film and TV. That's just what it is. But if I don't ask, if I don't bring my expertise of who I know and how to go there and what I'm going to need, then that production department doesn't know what I need. They don't understand, they don't realize, and you know this, I mean, how many wigs, where are you storing the wigs, Cliona? Where are you storing the wigs, like, do they know where the wigs get stored, and how they're going to get worked, and how they're going to dry? And I mean, that's what they, you know, it's your job to tell them that.
Cliona: Yeah, and then there's a lot of when you, when you're on location, and you know, the people I tend to work with, with the Guillermo group, this is the usual suspects, and we're a bit of a family. So I have such great support from the production hub, and you know, producers, line producers, the PM coordinators. They get it, because they've worked with me so often on big films. So that's really, I'm spoiled there.
But when I work with, on other films, like when I did Priscilla, or that was a really big wig film, and heavy hair makeup movie for us. And they didn't expect to be using wigs, I had to teach them that, and you know, it was a nice, they were great people. But I really had to be kind of loud about what I needed. And where I was getting to was, when you're on location, they, they want you to work out of a tent, you know, and there's times when you have to say, no, I need my trailer for that. Or yes, I can help out with that here. And then my beef is, give me a white tent, not a black tent. Yeah, so it's all of that, and you are looked at as though you're high maintenance. And you're, and I've just had to learn to not get emotional, not get mad, and just say the words. And you know, that just in the same way that the grips need their truck there, and their, you know, the camera people need their equipment, and their carts, and all the things that are there for everyone to do their job, we require that too. And it's, we kind of have to teach certain, teach in a way some, certain production people, or location people, or whoever it is. And you know, on Priscilla, I did bring up about the white tent, and I was asked to put wigs on in, in places that I felt I didn't have the circumstances where I could produce the quality. And so they ended up working with me really well, and the location guy was so great, and he got me a then we had, we didn't have TML lights in there at the time, but now I would today. Absolutely, but the lighting guys gave me some backlight to bounce in the white tent, and I actually, I'm going to send you these photos. I show them when I'm teaching, when I teach, you know, wig adhering, lace, yeah. I show them a picture of a black tent, and a makeup stay, a portable makeup station in there, and a white tent, it's just to show you, and sometimes, I don't think makeup people can see, it's too glary, it's too bright when you're in a black tent, but a hair person cannot see at all, because we're working on the back, on the back, so there's all this blast of horrible light on the front of someone, and it's dark everywhere else, so if I have someone that has dark hair, or in a wig, or something, I can't see my pins, I can't see anything, so I always do those side-by-side photos, and I put them up on a big screen, and share them. Lighting is so important
Vivian: Yeah, it is, here, I was going to show you this, you see that right there, we put the frame up, so I'm in my studio, and here's my hair light, right, so I have the light coming here. And then I have a hair light that'll fit there. It's kind of a large room, so it'd be easy enough for two of us to work.
But I'm going to tell you something, Cliona, from a TML perspective, not necessarily mine. And when I help, like I'm not, I mean, these are my husband's companies, I don't own them, they're his. But of course, I'm, you know, he's been a part of it, and I know a lot of it. And sometimes, if they, like, try to figure it out, and if the trailer companies have come, and we've gone in, and like, man, you need a hair light, like, we've got all this front light coming, you need a hair light, and I've had, they have come back to say to us, hey, we're going to take all those hair lights we bought, and turn them into something else, and I'm like, why, and they're like, well, we could ask another hairstylist, and they said they don't need it.
Cliona: Yeah, that's, that's hard for me, and I feel like I'm the only one, sometimes, who prioritizes what we're talking about.
Vivian: But you're not, and this is, and I'm going to say this, and I mean this well, like, Morgan is an Oscar winner, and now you're an Oscar winner. I'm going to tell you, the Oscar winners, the ones who have, or nominees, the ones who have been there, know what they need, and they ask for it, and they come, and they ask for it.
It's kind of crazy, because we've had this, and then we would get calls, and we would have to go in, and put up temporary hair lights, so that they could see the back, and it's not just for hair, sometimes it's for makeup, because if you're doing a bald cap, and then you're doing a wig, and then how many times, at some point, do we really work together? I mean, they may sit in the makeup chair, and go sit at the hair chair. But you know, after they get their costume on, and come in, we're all working in the same chair, doing those last minute touches. So you need to see full around, and it is a big thing, and you, you know, but I think a lot of it is learning to ask. And I feel like that hair gets really left out. I mean, I'm going to say, when it comes to trailers, and when it comes to that, you guys get really, really left out, and TML has fought for you, just know, if you walk into a trailer that has TML lights in it, but there's no hair light. It's, we did fight, we can't make anyone do what they don't want to do. We did fight, but you can always rent something.
I mean, that's kind of the advantage, you know, we got a call from a friend of mine, but I've done this as well, where the actress really wants to be done in her trailer, and production provided. They provided a big station with a, you know, the little, like, crow's nest for us to work in. The actress didn't want to do it, and they were like, we don't know how to light it. And I'm like, I got it, here's a phone call, make this phone call. Tell them we want this. And you know, TML does have your back for that, because they do know, you know, they as a company do understand the trailers, they understand.
So you can rent a light for production. It's not always, we never felt that it was the responsibility for makeup and hair to provide lighting, because we come from a film TV world. And in a commercial world, where that should be a part of it, we realized that that's not always the case, and sometimes it's just easier to have your own. Then you can put that in a box rental, but you can rent stuff.
If you're in a trailer that doesn't work, instead of trying to get the guys to put a light in there for you, because they're not built for that. Ours are built for that. And we have big panels, we can do big panels. You know, I built up big trailers on Maestro, we built out a massive trailer with a 40 by 40 mirror, two stations and something. Well, yeah, I mean, we're in the city, and they didn't have a pop out. And there's no way that we're going to have three makeup artists working on one person, and prosthetics for three to four at any given time, and be in a non-pop out, so, and production just didn't know, they just didn't know.
Cliona: Yeah, exactly, like they're not being mean or anything, they need to be made aware, and in the right way, you know, so they understand it saves them time, and it saves them, which saves them money in the end, and it's all about what goes on the screen for us, and you know, so it's back to that, you can't settle, you have to protect your, protect your work and own it, and you do things like that.
Vivian: Yeah, do you think that people are, I mean, in America, I think that people are, the department heads that I see, and the stories I hear, I think they're walking very carefully, they're afraid of, they're afraid of the downturn, if they're just not easy agreeable to everything, do you, are you seeing that in Canada?
Cliona: Oh yeah, that's always been around, and you know, and I remember, I remember being that person, because I was new, and I wanted the next job from that PM, or whatever, or when you're in a position of just taking any credit you can get, when you're trying to build your resume as a department head, it is harder. I, funny enough, because I got sort of pigeonholed or labeled, because I come from a wig making background, and did, worked with wigs in theatre and opera for so many years. And I got put into wig stuff right away in film, and so I had been doing that a while, and even at a young age. I was kind of loud about it, and saying, you know, I need this, I need this, and yeah, I felt a little bit alone with it. And because my thinking was, well, I can't do a good job if I don't have this, and I'm, I'm not here to embarrass myself, or anyone else, so yeah. But I've been the person who didn't know any different, and thought I just had to accept what trailer I'm given, and things like that. I've matured over time with that, and, but yeah, I see it all the time, and it, you know, they're, I don't know how to articulate it, but they're just a little shy to speak up, because they feel like they're going to be labeled, they're not production friendly. And you know, certain people want everything quick, and fast, fast, fast in TV, and, but if you want the quality that you want.
Like with Guillermo, for instance, I know he's, we're always on bigger budget things with him. And it's always a big feature film. But I have, there's a lot of pressure on me. He doesn't just automatically CGI lace, he's not, that doesn't happen with him. It's on me, I am expected to hide that lace, yeah. And he will do a close-up on somebody's sideburn here, right, where your lace is glued, and widen out, and I don't know any different than that. So it's been good for me to, it shouldn't be different than that, that's the level I'm working, so, you know, a lot of people don't even glue their lace, because they know it's going to be wiped out, that's not my world.
Vivian: Right, no, yeah, I think understanding how a digital camera reads lace is something else, and to break that up. But let me ask you a question for anyone who happens to be listening to this, what would be your advice to those, that artist who's trying to make a name, and wants, knows what they need, but feels like they're getting pushed back, and doesn't know how to keep pushing forward? Because it is a really, really hard line, you know, between I'm going to do a good job, or they're going to think I'm difficult, I mean, like, what's important here, what is your advice to them? I know, it's tricky, I wouldn't actually wish advice to anyone.
Cliona: I think it's to not get emotional, to not get angry, and I had to, you know, I'm a fiery girl, so there. Years and years ago, I've had PMs say, you know, calm down, because I would be so offended by what was just said to me. And I had to grow and understand that they're not waking up in the you are getting suppressed a little bit, but I have to, this is the narrative I have to do to be successful. And I would get really hot-tempered about things, and get angry. And I had to learn that they don't know, and I have to kind of teach, and so it's sort of that I don't personally need this, if you need it, soI share with people the perspective that I offer, you know. I have caught myself saying, I didn't write the period, I didn't write all the ways, yeah, I don't need this, I find the right way of explaining it, but there are some artists who aren't there yet, who don't, they just want to get through. Like, I'll hear things like, oh, well, the director didn't notice. So that's good, you know, it's like, but what do you think, you know, so people like you and I, and a lot of people that, who are passionate about it, care, and any of the notes. Most of the notes I have are me saying, oh, I've got to fix that, I've got to fix that.
Guillermo will give me notes, and directors will give me notes, of course, like everyone. But most of them are my own, where I'm not happy with something, and I feel I've got to improve something. And that's my job, right, that's what we do. So there are some people that are, I don't know if they're just evolving, or they just aren't. That's who they are, but I notice sometimes, you know, if they have a wig on, let's say, and they feel, like, relieved if nobody noticed something, but they're not necessarily going, I'm going to fix that to get it better next time. Some people, you know, enjoy the work, and they're there for the, it's a job, whereas we don't know that they didn't notice it, with some of that, yeah,
Vivian: I don't know that, like, you may not know that they didn't notice it.
Cliona: That's the thing, the way I look at it is it's not the director's job to be noticing, it's my job to have that director's back and it's, yeah, and the director should be thinking about the acting and all that.
Vivian: Right, because you don't want to get into post and then chew us out the whole time because now they got to fix a bunch of stuff and that's a really good segue into why TML, you know what I mean, is for that very reason in those ways, you know, to not only provide lighting for whatever the circumstances is that you have so that your artists have an opportunity.
And I've had to fight, I remember a movie, actually the one I won my Oscar for, I had to fight for TML because production, I hadn't department headed in the United States for a while because I'd been traveling so much and I come back to department head, not only in the US, but also in Los Angeles. And I was like, you know, what are we getting for makeup stations? And they're like, we get what we get it. And I'm like, no, no, no, I need to make sure I'm going to have almost every actress in some form of prosthetic and all of my background is going to be in the same room with the actress.
And so we're creating the blood, we have wigs, we have everything. I need to make sure that I don't have like skin weird shifts for everyone looks gray. And then my actress looks really red, you know what I mean? Like we needed the same thing. And it was quite an ordeal because in just a few short years, we had gone from all the department heads saying, this is what we need for background, we can do this and sorting it out, like getting in the room and figuring out when we have the background, and what we need to locations decides what we got. And it was quite a bit of an ugly fight. And I wasn't being, you know, I was at the point just asking questions, tell me why this is a problem. And, and they had turned into this, that location just calls a tent company and a company delivers whatever. So that's why you get a black tent, or a blue tent.
And in makeup, sometimes we've had this in LA, where the whole tent is white. And so no one can look up at full sun when it comes to makeup, I need a white tent for the sides to get me filled with a black roof. So that I mean, because they're all like this, they can't see if all their eyes are hurting, everyone is whatever. And then you guys could use that white lid, but no one was directing any of that, because the tent company handles it. I'm sorry, the tent company has no idea what we need. They have no idea. So we change that. And that's, that's, that's us giving it away. And we have to take that power back. And this is hard, I think for this young generation coming up. But the thing for The Makeup Light is that you've got the right color so that you can tell when it's dark outside, if your wig is going to match you for using the front of their hair, right? I mean, those are big issues for you, right?
Cliona: The lights are so important to me. First of all, I use it for wig making at home, too. I told you that. So it gives me a soft fill. It's a softer light. So I don't have glare if I'm ventilating, as Americans say. And I can do actually longer sessions, because my eyes aren't straining with glares and things like that. And so that and I don't do as much with the making anymore, but I do piecework. So I still have my light on the stand that bends over.
Vivian: Okay, they are kicking.
Cliona: Okay, I have that in my living room when I'm nodding. But in the trailer, and in particular
Vivian: I want to get back to wig making for a second.
Cliona: Okay.
Vivian: Yeah. Do you know why? Do you know why the light doesn't give you eye fatigue?
Cliona: No. I don't know if you can help explain that I just know it's soft, and it's all filled in. There's no funny shadows. It fills everything in the softest, easiest way. And I have very sensitive eyes. So I have really good vision, but I do wear very low prescription glasses, it's only because my eyes get tired quickly. So why is it?
Vivian: The reason why is that and here's the thing that I kind of want to point out if you're listening, you know, if you walk into a room, you go, yeah, I think this will work. And then you actually go put brush to face or needle to wig.Then when you're in that focus moment, you realize the light isn't what you need it to be. But the reason TML works is how we build it. First of all, we have the science behind it. So, and that is color temp. So, you know, that's pretty easy.
And we just do, we'll have more, but basically of white, the color information, that's what you were using your color matches it, because you don't see color if the color isn't in the light, the color has to be in the light. I mean, I see people teach color theory all the time, but they never teach light theory. And there's a missing hole and LEDs naturally don't have red in them. I mean, I read them all the time at a negative red in their information. So your brain fills in that information, but that's not what a camera sees. A camera sees that your brain's filling it in. Your brain is telling you what you want to see. The camera is telling you what really exists.
The other thing is the lux. So what that means is not the measurement of how bright the light is, but the measurement of how far that light projects onto a subject. And that is, that is a big part of how our light works. So the way that we do it is we put LEDs through what's called a light guide. So that soft panel is a light guide. So the LEDs, and we have to drive them pretty hard to make the light push through that light guide and it refracts the light. So the light's doing all this stuff and then it goes through the light guide as a diffusion panel as well. So when it comes through, it has softened it, you get all the sparkle from it, but you don't get those micro shadows in the light. Where you place the light is where you want the micro shadows. So you may unlace, place the light where you get the micro shadow of the lace from the light so that you can see it, but you have the soft light that fills it in.
So it is in the build and no one does all the stuff that we do. And it's expensive for us to do it.
Cliona: Yeah. And you can't see any bulb. It's all that, like that, that panel that is the filter it's, it's so even and soft. And that's not harsh in any way. I, that's what I love. A lot of other lights that people can buy that claim to be for makeup. You can see the little bulbs, the little, and it's just a bit much, but yeah. And then if we're in the trailer, I was going to say with Frankenstein, there were so many doubles, there's always doubles. We all know how to do doubles, stunt doubles, photo doubles. And the expectations are high with that too. So that long red wig that we had on Mia. I had, we had to do five duplicates of that cheaper version. Yeah. So cheaper, cheaper weft, cheaper wigs. And then I had a lot of great help. Dawn Rivard, wig maker, helped build all those panels for me and couldn't have done that without her. And then I had to work on the color a lot. It was the colors.
So with doubles for me, if you get the shape right and you know, all that, that's great. But if the color is slightly off, that's the dead giveaway. So I'd rather have a wig or a double wig that is the exact right color. Even if the shape isn't perfect, it's all about the colors. So for Harlander, Christopher Waltz's wig… For Mia's red wig for Claire, every single character, there were prosthetic dummies. I have to have the exact color tripled and quadrupled for so many people. So just coloring your actors or correcting things with your actor's own hair. Color is big for me. And I do a lot of coloring in my trailer. So the lights are crucial and I still check things in the shade, check things in the sun, but those lights to use as my basis for pulling out color swatches like to match. And I'm going to now use that to build a wig or send it to a wig maker. If you're off by a titch when you get into things like light browns and warm and cool, you'll throw the whole thing off if you aren't looking in the right light.
Vivian: Absolutely. And we have this in the real world as well. I've had this experience more than once, to get my hair colored. I try to match what I used when I was young. But then again, I'm not young, so it's not that way anymore. But I'll go into a place where they're going to color it. I mean, not not even what we do. And the light is so bad. And I've gotten to where I'll bring a light. And the last time I forgot to bring the light, and I was so busy, I had to get some color done on my roots. I hate roots. And I was on a Zoom. I mean, I was just having to do a lot of stuff. So I wasn't paying any attention to what happened. And by the time I got home after paying after a whole day, paying money, I had yellow hair, instead of strawberry blonde hair. And there's no way you can make your makeup work. Because the makeup is always wrong. Because the hair is wrong, the makeup is wrong. And you know this as a hairstylist, the hair is what you see first, you get in close for the makeup, but the hair is your wide frame, the hair tells you where you are, the hair tells you who it is, the hair tells you what period you're in the hair tells you how old they are. The hair is so filled with information. And we dismiss it. And finally, I was like, I'm not going to do that again.
I think the hairstylist is a genius. It is not a thing for her, but she can't see. She can't see. And so I realized how many people do stuff out of their head. But you're doing hair color, it's not out of your head. You know, it's always a little different. Because what happened last time? What you know, has it grown out? Is it the same amount? Did it fade? Did it fade too much? Did I pull it all the way through? What do you need? These are always decisions that need to be made on the moment.
And so color's a big deal. And I don't think the world realizes, Cliona, how many wigs you have to do for one character because you never see it in the finished.
Cliona: No, yeah. And that's a good thing. That means we did our job. All the doubles in that Frankenstein movie was actually my stress. It was the bane of my existence. Because the lead wigs, there was time. We had a lot of wigs built through the strike. And I'm not going to say it was quick, but I had the time to spend. Really nice wigs made for everyone perfectly, did a couple fittings, but duplicating them all… That is what is stressing me in the trailer and things I need help with and a lot of coloring going on.
Vivian: Yeah, if you're not having the same amount of money you don't have the same quality.
Cliona: And it’s really hard to make wigs look exactly the same. They're going to be different. So color is huge. But I wanted to tell you this. I did a movie that isn't out yet. And I did it last summer called Being Heumann. Siân Hader was the director and all of our cast were disabled, whether they be wheelchair users or deaf, blind. It was great. I wanted to do that movie for the experience.
And I worked in, if not the first trailer, one of the first in North America, that is a fully accessible hair trailer, like a hair makeup trailer with a lift for wheelchair accessibility. And I took a video of it. It's the best trailer I've ever worked in and the company that built it were incredible. And all the lights were TML.
Vivian: Really?
Cliona: Yes.
Vivian: I need to know the name of that company.
Cliona: Yeah, I gotta find it right now. I feel really terrible, I wish I could plug them right now. Well, they built it, they adopted this truck for our movie. And then we had to take every other station, we took the chair out, because some people in wheelchairs don't transfer or aren't able to or don't want to. And then some want to transfer into a hair chair. And just having that lighting, it was just such a relief. I was glad I didn't hook up all my stuff that I bring in my kit. And they really did a phenomenal job, I've got them on Instagram.
Vivian: You can tell us later if you want, I can look at it.
Cliona: I took a video but I can't post a video with all the wigs in there and everything right now. But I know when I loaded it out and it was empty, I was like, I've got to show Vivian this because I figured you would know about it when I just mentioned it now. That's the goal with the wheelchair lift.
Vivian: I will find out if Michael knows about it. You know, sometimes they'll sell lights and he may not know. Sometimes we're really involved and sometimes we're not. Sometimes we design it and everything is custom. And sometimes I'll pick up custom stuff. So I don't know all of them.
Cliona: Oh, it was loaded with them. It was all the Eyelights on the top and sides, each station, beautiful lights up top that you could control. I was so happy, never so happy. And anyway, when I loaded out, and I'd had my wigs and everything were gone, I did take a video and I could probably post that now because there's nothing but the trailer, but I was just getting confirmation from Melissa, our line producer, as to whether it is the first or if it's one of the three in North America that are accessible trailers with the with the hydraulic lift. I've never seen a trailer with a hydraulic lift, but I've seen a lot of huge milestones because this is the first movie I've ever heard of that's been made like this.And a lot of the actors and people that I got to work with, one man, Michael Patrick Thornton, who's a he's well established and acclaimed actor. He's a wheelchair user. Joanne and I worked on it together. She was makeup, we colored his hair, we did his beard and all his looks. When he was going down the hydraulic lift, he wanted to take a picture of us. He said, you know, in 30 years, I've never been on a hair truck.
And I thought I was going to cry. And I thought, this is 2025, and this is only happening now. But I guess it's good. It's happening. That was why I wanted to do this movie. And your lights,TML, is in that truck. So I'm so happy. That was a big first for me in my career. And it should be the way going forward, in my opinion.
Vivian: I mean, I agree. I've seen more people on those steps. I was working a film and some background person fell off the steps, fell out of the trailer. It was like take her to the hospital. You know, they're grippy when they're grippy. They're bad, because it's bad. And when they're not grippy, they're slippery. It's like we really can up the level of this stuff. And you're right, TML, we get a lot of people call TML they we and I'm so glad that they understand. Like producers, interestingly enough, producers do understand lighting, they do. And they do respect it. They're happy to give you, they're happy to work with you if you come to them with solutions and not complaints. And I think that's one of the biggest pieces of advice that I would give a young artist is figuring out your solution. And you're right, I get offended, too. I'm really good. I'm like, this is what you're gonna do. Take a step walk around the office or do something until you have a solution and then come back with a solution. And TML…
Cliona: Don't just complain. They don't want to hear that.
Vivian: Come back with a solution. TML is a really fantastic solution for a lot of stuff. I want a TML trailer, I want a trailer outfitted with TML. That's one level of movie. Okay, so you didn't give me a trailer outfitted with TML. I may have my TML lights, but my team needs the same thing. So we can rent TML lights for this film to adjust this or we have actors who want to do this or where's our green room going to be and it's going to be in a different place. So these are places that the company TML and CVA, they have a rental business for makeup stations that are easy to rent. I mean, the whole thing, you can keep them, they, you can put them in a van. You don't need the kind of space or don't need two people to move them because they're on whatever tables or tables or adjustable height because hairstylists always want the low table and then you'll have makeup artists who are really tall. They're like Jake Garber or someone else, you have these guys that are close to seven feet tall. And so you can raise those tables up and different size chairs. You guys want short chairs, we like medium chairs and tall chairs. Tall chairs are too much for me. I don't like working out of a tall chair. I get a tall actor and a tall chair if I'm doing background and you're doing stuff and it's like, I'm reaching above my head trying to get to them. These are the things that’s really hard for young department heads to fight for, but TML is there for you.
So the advantage, I mean, you're in Canada, so it's a little challenging, but in America, Michael knows his business. My husband knows his business and he knows to represent us well. And that's the advantage because he's not, oh yeah, that dumb makeup artist. Michael's like, no, the makeup artist are my allies. They're my allies. What did they need? How can I work with them? And he knows how to do that. He knows how to work with the production manager to work with the drivers, to work with the Teamsters so that your referral was a check mark of good behavior on your part. It's a good reflection on you because you're not just sending them to some company that doesn't know how to work with them. What do you need? How are we going to do this? You know, because they'll get stuff like, hey, we're going to shoot. We can ship them all back. Michael's like, just keep them and we'll just do an idle. We'll do an idle for those three weeks that you're off and then come back up instead of paying shipping.
You know, so Michael really knows how to work with the companies to give what you need an easy thing to do because being able to see is everything we do. Everything.
Cliona: Oh, absolutely. And I just wanted to speak really quickly to the people that are starting as department heads. And just I'm remembering, it is hard. And what you said, that advice was the best advice. To come up with a solution. And mine would be, you know, don't get emotional. And ultimately, a production person usually just needs to know how much it costs and how long it takes and what is the solution. So we have to think that way. And but I remember, you know, I can think back to me doing a long many years ago, doing shows with hundreds of wigs. And I was put in a trailer that didn't even have pegs in it or anywhere to travel wigs. All these wigs were in flower boxes on the floor.
So people are on their own path to write. So that happened to me. And I took mental notes that this is never happening to me again. This is never happening again. So I learned to empower myself by that. It wasn't a mistake. I just didn't know any different. And I was put into a situation. I have empowered myself on that one. And I ask to see the trailer in advance, and I go and see it or I see pictures of it. I am proactive and I do the planning. So I think people that are a little more junior at department heading are just on their own path where things will happen, and they’ll go, oh… I tried to be helpful. But then it messed up what I had to do. You know, I wasn't able to deliver well. So, you know, I think there's a thing to be said for people that are on their own journey as well.
Vivian: Well, I think education for them to understand. I mean, this is something that maybe the young artist can understand what happens. And that is, when they start the film and they start the scouting long before we're hired, unless, of course, it's a big movie where, prosthetics and wigs and then we'll get hired early on. But if you're doing something because you're young, you're doing something that doesn't require all that.
You may be one of the last departments hired. And because of that, the other departments have kind of sucked the money away. So you're kind of coming in and you don't have a lot. The other thing that I think that they do not understand is that because of that, a lot of the scouting has been done and that scouting is with location, the director, your gaffer, your grub and your transfer. Right. And the transfer is like, OK, so this is the set. Where's base camp? So they're looking for base camp. So they literally have a grid of where every truck is going to go to the set and to base camp. And so they're like, we're just going to do a little eight stations for this company, not realizing that you really need eight people in there. And most eight station trailers really only hold six. Right. And so you come in and you're like, no, I need a semi and they get dramatic. The problem is because the base camp that they scouted for months over now is gone, can be eradicated. They got to find you base camps to add that. Big semi in there of your tent station or if you need two of those because they're already locking in how they're going to back those in, what's it going to take? What can they move forward way before you get hired? And it's kind of a mistake in a way to not know what we need. So whoever decided to do that, it is a mistake on their part. But this is where you get in and you're like, these are my needs.
So how can we go about it? Tell me what your problems are. Let me see how we can figure this out. Maybe we can do two eight station trailers or one, this and a six and give me a small one for storage. I mean, there are ways to think about it. There are things to bring to the table. Then let's do this. Let's hire a couple of PAs or a few trainees so that if I have to keep the bulk of my supplies at the office, they can go back and forth.
You could always figure it out. Be creative in how you figure it out with production so that you're coming up with solutions to own your art, as you say. You know what I mean? Own it. Take responsibility. Stand up for it and learn how to be flexible because it's about all of us equally, right?
Cliona: Yes. What my beef is, and it's a little bit of a trigger for me and I have to watch that I don't get fiery, and a makeup artist named Alistair helped me articulate this. He said this and he's so wise. So I thank him for that. If I get spoken to as though our department is an obstacle, like, do you know how far base camp is from set? You have to put the way you have to do those wigs on set. We don't have any time. And it's like a 20 minute drive. OK, you've put the base camp that far. You want to say that's a you problem, not a me problem, but you can't say that. But I'm just being spoken to now like what I do is an obstacle.
The obstacle is where you've put the distance between the two things that you've planned without thinking that everybody has a job to do. So I have to temper myself a lot because that happens sometimes and probably a lot more with younger, newer people than it does to me. But it still does happen to me and I still have to handle it and own it, but that is a trigger for me.
Vivian: I understand. I've kind of been in the same place. I mean, yeah, those are their decisions. That has a lot to do with the size of base camp, the sizes that they had. One of the things that I've done, Cliona, is especially if they go, so we need to make this change and that change. Can you do it all on set?And you're like, well, that's a wig change and that's a pretty big makeup change. I got to clean everything up. I think if you judiciously say I can do that on set, I cannot do this on set. That must is a trailer. Then they'll begin to work with you.
It’s one of the things that I've learned to do and this definitely goes back to TML. I will tell them if you give me a proper set up, then I can make that change. I can't make that one, but I can make that change on set. Give me a proper set up and I will and they will. And so we will always have a set up with two tables, two makeup stations, two CVA TML makeup stations, and then a light that gives ambient light. And that's all set up by the PAs before is at every location. And so that's where we go. That's where we do our touch-ups and, and, you know, yeah, maybe I have to say, if you want to do a lot of that, I need to hire a PA. We need to hire someone for that day so that we can move where we need to move. And then some things are no, no game or some things I need to be in my trailer. I need the sink. I need the water. We got to clean them up. We can't take everything. I will not have it.
Cliona: That's where you need the privacy because you know, it's body makeup or something like that.But either way, an example of you owning it and I'm going to give you credit right now is a movie we did together. There was a whole meeting with the cinematographer. How are we going to do this? You and I were brought into the meeting. I had to provide all these, I had to duplicate twins and do all this and the wigs had to be perfect. And each actor had to have three duplicates, one for a body double, photo double the stunt double, and it was going to be split screen and there were prosthetics involved.
So there was this meeting the cinematographer held because he's been around and he respects what we do. And how are we going to plan this? And you so eloquently in the meeting and the production meeting after said, it was at a lake and you said, put our trailer right at the Lake. Beause it was all about the prosthetic and the change that had to happen at this lake and it was daylight dependent and there was only so many hours. And that was the answer right there. And our trailer was put at the lake. I remember that. And that was you owning it.I wouldn't have asked that at that point in time I would now, because I'd learned from you, but, usually it's out of people's scope. Like, what do you mean? We don't do that. But it solved everything. There was no travel, everything that needed was right there. And I had to put wigs on and change wigs. And you had to go into prosthetics from a regular look on someone. It was huge.
Vivian: It's a big day.
Cliona: We had our trailer at the lake. So that's an example right there.
Vivian: I forgot that I asked about that. On the flip side there was a time that we were in a situation of a big turnaround with actors and it was a big night shoot. We had tons of doubles and tons of people coming through and production was definitely trying to, I got to get this person off the clock for their turnaround. And so I'm trying to get my team off the clock for their turnarounds. We ended up near the end of the day being a bunch of doubles and this, there were mustaches and stuff to be done. I went to production. I went to the drivers and I went to that first CD and I was like, look, give me peace, give me a room in the honey wagon and we'll go set that honey wagon up. And I will keep these people on set. And once you cast all the actors, we'll bolt the trailer up and you can move my trailer and we will clean up the doubles in the honey wagon so that you can move my trailer. And the ADs and the drivers looked at me and the AD put his hand out and shook my hand because I understand their issues.
This is me not being the diva at every point. This is like, I need my trailer in the morning. You've got turnaround issues all the way around. This is how I'm gonna help you. I'm not gonna keep any of my team here to get over time. See, I'm playing ball with you. I'm gonna hire people that can stay. We're doubles, they can watch them. We can get it off a double, you know, with a little bit of kit for that particular circumstance. I would never do that for a cast member, but I would do it for doubles. I would do it for certain things. I knew I can handle it and get my trailer out of here. And they were like, oh my God, we've never worked with a makeup artist like you.
Because we can help them too. If I want you to help me to put my trailer where it needs to be, then I need to show you that it's not all about me. I'm willing to help you too. Because at that point, it's about doubles. They need to look right. But under the circumstances, I didn't need my trailer. I needed the honey wagon to clean them up.
Cliona: It's not at all about being a diva ever. It never was for me. It's about being able to produce what I'm being asked, my contribution to this film. And, back in my more junior days, I did want to just help. And I did, without knowing it, subscribed to that thing of we're an obstacle, you know? And that's why I talked about growing and maturing and owning my craft. But any time in the past that I've said, oh yeah, okay, yeah, there's no time or we're too far away. I'll put that wig on. I'll do my best in a tent or in some circumstance that isn't great, that doesn't have the right light or the right table even.
I've regretted it always. It's been me that's, it's my work wasn't up to par. Like I put a wig on, I didn't have the right light or whatever, or it was a bouncy room or something. And I've just kind of shot myself in the foot and had problems all day and didn't like what I had put on camera. So you learn from that too, you know?
Vivian: Cliona, I did the same thing. And honestly, that's kind of where The Makeup Light came from, is me being in those circumstances and making bad decisions, trying to be easy to work with and making, putting myself in a situation where I could be fantastic when I couldn't. It's one thing for me to not be in a comfortable position while I'm doing the makeup, it's one thing to not be in a nice place when I'm doing the makeup, but it's another thing to not be able to see. And that's where The Makeup Light actually was born, was me being able to give myself what I needed no matter what, and there was no solution. There wasn't a solution out there.
Like the electric department didn't have a solution. Many times they would be so tight on budget that they're like, Vivian, I don't have a spare light to give you, because I need it for the next scene. So sometimes, some movies are big enough that they have plenty of lights, but some of them not. They're really tight on how much they let them rent. And so TML became the solution for that, because you're absolutely right, Cliiona, we cannot put ourselves in a place where we will fail.
We can put ourselves in a place where we're challenged, where we're stretched, where we have a calculated risk, but if we're going to agree to failure, then we just have egg on our face. And we don't get respect for it. They're like, oh, well, I could bully you, but you weren't good enough. They don't quite understand that they bullied us into that place and we gave up. You're absolutely right.
Cliona: Yeah, and the thing is, when you watch a beautiful feature film that the hair and makeup is winning awards or whatever, do you think anyone, even the producer, while you get your Oscar is saying, yeah, but it took her 40 minutes and she wanted a light? No, all that matters in the end is what is on that screen. And the whole in the now thing, when it's not right on screen, it's in the now forever. It's never in the past. So that stuff is how you got there. So that's the other thing I sort of teach the younger ones too, is when the film is done and it's there for years and it's a piece of art, is anybody saying, you know, yeah, but Vivian wanted the trailer at the lake or, but this, but that. No, all that matters is what's on there and it's there forever.
Vivian: You're absolutely right. You know, I think about the artistic part of it, and I won't keep us too long, but I think this is something that I've seen a lot. And I know that you understand this. When you're in a dynamic where you haven't allowed yourself to see well because you're overcoming things, the artistic level of you goes away because you start to do it out of your brain and you quit using your eyes because your eyes were not useful for you. And that creative endeavor, and it works so much like when you and I worked with it, that creative endeavor while you're moving the hair around and doing this. And I'm like, oh, and then I see the balance to the makeup that works with the hair. And so we can see, then we create better art, which is for the screen, which is what they want anyway. And when you position yourself where you cannot see no matter how good your tools are, because you being able to see is you, it is your art, it is your eye, it is your aesthetic of, oh, I see that lace. I've had people say to me, oh, I don't wanna see. And I'm like, well, the camera's seeing it whether you see it or not.
You know what I mean? And I understand that part of it, but I witness this all the time, Cliona, especially being an artist that has lights. How many makeup artists don't look anymore? They just do it out of their head. And when I start to work with them in my studio and go, okay, no, no, no, no, stop, look. What are you doing? Look. And they were like, oh my God, it's so hard for them to take a moment to look. And then when they do, the entire artistic palette changes and the world opens up because, you know, that's how we create a character. Everyone is different. All those doubles, how do I make that double look like this double?
You have to see. It's not putting the makeup, it's not putting the wig on that person that matches this. It's putting a wig on that person and making it look like that person. Is it the same high up? Is it lower down? Does it kind of go here? Like, how do you shape their face with it? If their head's bigger, how do you make that work? Like a lot of things that go into what we do that comes from seeing. I'm glad that an Oscar winner, of you, of a hairstylist understands that.
And I'm just going to say, the trailer we worked in for Bombshell, which is what I won my Oscar for, was lit by TML. It was PIC Trailers. It's Howard Berger's company PIC Trailers that do beautiful stuff. And everyone on the team was like, we really think that being able to see the way this trailer was lit really made our work better. And that was why we were able to create what we created for the film.
Cliona: Well, I can tell you for Frankenstein, Jordan Samuel, makeup artist, also Oscar winner, his whole trailer, every mirror was surrounded with TML lights. And I have my own that I bring in and my team has their own too. So our work, hair work was done with TML lighting as well for Frankenstein.
Vivian: I love Jordan too. I don't know Mike, but I do know Jordan. We worked together many, many years ago. And I love Toronto. I love Toronto. You're lucky to have a team. I never did that. I kept every, I never seemed to have the same team and I do a lot of personal work.
Cliona: Because you're personal, that's why. You lose your team when you're personal. Yeah.
Vivian: Yeah. And I wasn't really into it. I thought that I would hate it. But the truth is that personal work is really hard because it's only you. You don't have a team.
Cliona: Yeah! God forbid you have a doctor appointment.
Vivian: Or you have to pee!
Cliona: I've done it. I did it on a show with an actress in a show called Suits, and I was her personal for six years. When they had hiatuses, I was just lucky it worked out. I was able to do my movies. But when it is just you, what I love with personaling is the intimacy of the work and that familiarity you have with somebody and that you just know every, for me, every hair, you just know. It's a nice intimate work, and I really like that. But if you have a specialist appointment or something, yeah, it's very hard.
Vivian: Yeah. I mean, they're different. You know, being a personal to a department head is all the same skills, but you have to put on a different personality in a way, isn't it? Like you have to, when I first started to do it, it was really hard for me to shake the department head cap. Really hard because I still see everything as all of it together. And I try to work that way with everybody. You know what I mean? But it's really hard to do, but it has its advantages. And the other thing is, and this is, you know, we'll talk about this and then we'll be done for the young people out there who are starting. I think they have this idea that if you're going to work a big movie or if you're going to work with a star that you come in and yo
u do, this is my work on you. And that is not how it works at all. You know what I mean? I have found that they hire me because they know that I can do anything they need to do and that I'm flexible to do with everything and to take pieces that they care about and things that they want and morph it into what we're going to do. So it's so much collaboration and you really have to let go. You really have to let go and let them bring themselves in and not be eradicated or offended by that. And then come back and take that and turn it into something. The artistic part of you is a really different one, whereas the department head, as a department head for most of the cast, you're like, this is what we're going to do. And there's an empowerment there with you pulling your vision together. When you're working as a personal, you have to take a different step around it. And it's a new place where humility and confidence have to sit on the same seat. It's not an easy thing to do, I think, right?
Cliona: No, and hopefully we can all see while we do whatever we're doing.
Vivian: Well, that's, I mean, honestly for me, that's the biggest thing, because as a personal, again, they want to know, they want to see. So if I'm not working in great lighting and they can't see, and so that's the best tool I give myself is to put us in the kind of lighting where we are both a part of it. And I do do this as well. When I set up for a personal, I always set up to work with a hairstylist simultaneously. Even if I step away and you do your thing, because at some point, no matter how you look at it, what I do is not separate from what you do.
The balance of the hair to makeup, how big the lashes are, how much eye makeup I put on, where the brows are, what that's about, the colors used, everything is all about the hair. It's all about the hair. If the hair is not right, I cannot be right.
Cliona: If you're wearing a wig, it kind of even more depends on the brows and it frames everything.
Vivian: It does.
Cliona:They frame each other actually, yeah.
Vivian: Yeah, and I love that. I think that our departments have separated a little bit that I've witnessed over the years where makeup is more separate than hair. And I really hate to see that because just like the hair grows on my face and you can't find it, then all of a sudden it becomes hair.
It's as seamlessly as we should work together. And as seamlessly as we should see the things that we do. The decisions that I make, I'm the actress of the decisions that you make. We really are one that have very unique skills that need to see the same thing. I see that. You know, I remember this, a really great story, you'll understand this. I was working on this actress and she usually has blonde hair and she had a black wig on. And she could be very garish and the makeup was very garish. It was 1920’s and it was supposed to be heavy at every point. We're in the scene where she's really pale with red lips and heavy eyes. And you know how that could be like. Too much makeup, under leading lady. And I was always scared of it. But we had scenes that it had to be like that. And she's shooting and I'm looking at her and I'm like, oh my God, she looks such a clown. Like it's really garish, it's scary. And I said to the hairstylist, do you see she looks wrong today? And he goes. And during, when they cut, he goes over and he takes her wig and he shifts it over a 16th of an inch. A 16th of an inch. For the part, literally, that's it. And the wig hit her face. And she went from a garish clown into a beautiful woman again. We never, ever, ever think that a 16th of an inch. And he came back and he said, it was a Monday. And he said, remember I cut her hair Friday before she flew out. And so there wasn't the same bulk of hair under the cap. Right. So he did the same thing he always did. And then we caught it and it went back. And that to me was one of the most profound moments of the power of hair. Yeah. So amazing.
Cliona: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what Guillermo always says. He said it at our nominee symposium. One department, like props is hair, makeup is set deck. Like one department, it's all one orchestra and one doesn't exist without the other. But with us, our departments, it's even tighter. Obviously more reliant on each other, but I really liked how he described that. It's really true with everyone, but with us, it's much more intimate.
Vivian: And I think that's what everyone wants to be in the film business for, is because we have this unity of how we work. So if you're gonna come into the film industry, you gotta leave outside your business world, how we're gonna do stuff and come in and jump into the deep water and get wet and messy and offended, because there's one thing, my loyalty’s to the screen. What is the screen seeing? It's not about what you like, what we think, it's what's the screen seeing. And it's all about being able to see. And I'm proud that TML is a big, big, big part of that.
Cliona: Well, it was a part of Frankenstein too. And I'm gonna send you, maybe I can even post it, but I'll let you know that company.
Vivian: Okay, I would love that. Cliona, I'm so happy for you. I'm so glad that I know you outside of this and that we're friends and we've been friends for a long time. And I really, really look forward to working with you again and beautiful work. And I'm just, I'm so thankful. Pinch yourself as often as you need. And you'll go through lots of, every week will be a different perspective. You'll be kind of blown away because you'll be like, does it ever settle down? And it takes a long time to settle down, but it's wonderful.
Cliona: Well, thank you so much. I enjoyed talking.
Vivian: I enjoyed it. Thank you. Are you kidding? Bye.
Cliona: Bye!